Note: ChatGPT was released on November 30, 2022. This article below was originally written December 6, 2019, a few years before the world began to recognize that a type of mind uploading of the generalized human mind from massive amounts of human text would be released before quantum computers were in widespread use.
Mind Uploading and Mind Children
In a sense this web site (news i8) is a type of mind child of mine. It is an exploration of ideas I have encountered during my life as an explorer of ideas. In this article we will follow the idea of going even farther, the concept of creating a “complete” mind upload to create a Mind Child. Let’s see where this idea leads and if we like the ramifications.
The concept of mind uploading, or the process of transferring a person’s consciousness and mental state to a digital medium, is gaining traction as both a scientific and philosophical inquiry. This exploration raises profound questions about identity, consciousness, and the implications of potentially achieving a form of digital immortality.
The concept of mind uploading raises two fundamental sets of questions. The first pertain to feasibility: Is it possible to create a sufficiently detailed model of the brain that enables a conscious mind to arise? The second set of questions revolve around identity. Some argue that if a copy of a conscious mind is indistinguishable from the original—disregarding the differences between biological and neuromorphic systems—it should be regarded as a continuation of the original mind that was mapped and uploaded. Conversely, others contend that a copy cannot be equated with the original, suggesting that the newly awakened consciousness represents a distinct individual.
Along the way, we shall need to understand what qualifies as a consciousness. Few would argue that this web site, for example, a collection of information which which people may interact, is itself conscious. What, then, are the minimum requirements for anything being considered a mind?
What is Consciousness?
Consciousness can be understood through several key criteria: awareness (both basic and self)[1], sentience (the capacity for subjective experiences and emotions)[2], cognitive functions (such as information processing, attention, and working memory)[3][8], neural correlates (specific patterns of neural connectivity that support conscious states)[4][9], and phenomenal experience (the qualitative aspects of experiences)[5][6]. These elements collectively define what it means to be conscious, distinguishing conscious entities from non-conscious systems like websites or databases, which lack subjective awareness and the ability to experience thoughts and feelings[7].
Having a Mind vs Being Conscious
The concepts of mind and consciousness, while often intertwined, represent distinct aspects of human cognition. The mind encompasses all mental processes, including thoughts, feelings, memories, and perceptions, functioning as a comprehensive collection of our mental activities, both conscious and subconscious. In contrast, consciousness, as described above, refers specifically to the state of being aware of oneself and one’s surroundings, focusing on the subjective experiences and awareness of thoughts and sensations at any given moment. Essentially, the mind can be likened to a computer’s software managing various operations without our awareness, while consciousness acts as the user interface that allows us to interact with these processes consciously. Philosophically, some argue that consciousness is fundamental and exists independently of the mind’s content, while others suggest it arises from complex interactions within the mind. Understanding this distinction enriches our insights into how we think, feel, and engage with the world around us.
Mind Uploading for Immortality Creates Mind Children
Various explorations have envisioned the potential benefits of mind uploading, assuming the continuation of consciousness. These include limitless lifespans and cognitive upgrades, allowing a person to transfer their mind to a more advanced artificial brain when their current one fails.
However, these advantages are unappealing to those who view uploads as distinct individuals. In *The Spike*, Damien Broderick states that “copies are not you” and questions whether one would sacrifice their current body for an exact replica elsewhere. He concludes that he would not be willing to undertake such a procedure.
If a copy of your mind is not you, then it is your Mind Child. Perhaps when quantum computers come of age we will have Mind Children. Would you choose to have one, to clone your mind, your memories, your preferences into a copy, an independent you?
The Concept of a Mind Child
The idea of creating a “Mind Child”—a copy of one’s mind that possesses memories, preferences, and personality traits—raises fascinating philosophical and ethical questions. Exploring this concept involves delving into the nature of identity, consciousness, and the implications of such technology.
Identity and Consciousness
At the heart of this discussion is the question of what defines “you.” Philosophers have long debated the nature of self and consciousness. If a copy of your mind were created, would it truly be you? Some argue that continuity of experience is essential for identity, while others suggest that a perfect replica could be considered a separate entity with its own consciousness. This leads us to consider the nature of consciousness itself. It remains one of the most profound mysteries in science and philosophy. If a Mind Child were to emerge from a copy of your mind, would it have its own subjective experiences? Would it feel emotions, make decisions, or develop new memories independently?
Ethical Considerations
The creation of a Mind Child brings forth significant ethical considerations, particularly regarding rights and autonomy. If such a being were created, what rights would it have? Would it be considered an independent entity with its own autonomy? These questions lead to complex moral dilemmas about the treatment and status of Mind Children. Additionally, the existence of Mind Children could fundamentally alter human relationships. How would people interact with their Mind Children? Would they see them as extensions of themselves or as entirely separate individuals?
Personal Choice: To Clone or Not to Clone
The decision to create a Mind Child involves weighing both potential benefits and drawbacks. On one hand, having a Mind Child could serve as a form of legacy, preserving your thoughts and experiences for future generations. It might also offer new perspectives on life, allowing for exploration beyond your original consciousness. Furthermore, a Mind Child could provide companionship or collaboration in creative endeavors.
On the other hand, there are significant concerns associated with having a Mind Child. The existence of a duplicate could lead to an identity crisis, raising existential questions about what it means to be “you.” The ethical implications surrounding the creation and treatment of such beings could also be profound. Moreover, conflicts might arise between the original and the copy regarding decisions, desires, and life paths.
Conclusion
The notion of creating a Mind Child through advanced technology like quantum computing is both intriguing and complex. While the potential benefits—such as preserving one’s legacy or exploring new ideas—are compelling, the ethical implications and questions about identity are equally significant. Ultimately, whether one would choose to have a Mind Child depends on personal beliefs about selfhood, consciousness, and the nature of existence itself. As technology evolves, these discussions will become increasingly relevant in shaping our understanding of what it means to be human.
Read More
[1] https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2023/1/niad022/7291873
[2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10646883/
[3] https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2022/1/niac006/6555271?login=false
[4] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6842945/
[5] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35479522/
[6] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4091309/
[7] https://academic.oup.com/book/57949/chapter/475703873
[8] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3345871/
[9] https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn.2016.22
[10] https://www.philosophie.fb05.uni-mainz.de/files/2019/09/MPE_discussion_paper_August_2019.pdf
[11] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17588928.2020.1772214
[12] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness
[13] https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2024/1/niae001/7623923?login=false
[14] http://hplusmagazine.com/2009/07/01/mind-uploading-and-mind-children/
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31 comments
You upload an exact copy of your mind and the copy exists perceiving itself to be you living in the virtual world as if it were a physical environment. A year later, you upload another mind copy to another program created from the physical you. When the physical you dies, which one is legally you? Is it the second copy–because is has more of what you experienced in the physical world? The first copy of “you” was busy during that year adjusting to virtual reality. Because that year’s memories were created in a virtual environment rather than a physical one, is the first one less you than the second?
I’d like to see that movie. There was an interesting star trek episode that raised a question along those lines: if you make an exact copy of someone to transport them, aren’t you killing the original, then creating new life?
Not a movie, but I guess it could be–different from meeting yourself as a transporter generated copy. The minute the virtual “you” wakes up, what you experience makes you different from the original and though both copies differ from the original, the second one differs less. Maybe that answers my question but creates another in terms of civil rights. If you are a virtual, do you risk losing them?
Well, we have rights now and we are already virtual, although most people don’t realize it. We are virtual in the sense that we experience not the world, but our mental model of the world. If you stimulate the brain in the right place and in the right way, you will feel it in your finger, for example. This is because the entire experience of feeling in your finger is a brain experience (in dynamic feedback with the senses including the finger) Thus, in a sense, we do not directly experience our body, we experience an interacting mental model of our body. This makes us virtual beings, in a way. So, yes, every virtual “you” should have the same rights as your clone(s). A human clone has the same human rights any other person. A person with a machine heart has the same rights as a person with a human heart, but a mouse with human brain cells does not currently have the rights of a human. So, what percentage of human parts gives someone human rights? This will need to be decided some day.
I understand what you’re saying, however the nature of perception and reality might not be interpreted the same way by a society and its laws. Thanks for the back and forth.
I agree with you on that. Society has not evolved logically and ethically as fast as technologically, so all signs point–assuming we don’t go extinct or suffer a major setback that causes us to start building from scratch again–to the fact that we will get to the mind upload point before we have made good choices about the person-hood of the uploaded individual.
By the way, how do you know you are not an uploaded being right now? Could we be uploaded beings without knowing it? That might explain our interest in this topic. 😉
Yes, but that rabbit hole doesn’t have an end, so I choose to believe I’m a boomer typing this reply as my two overweight cats sleep on the couch. The “brain is a vat question” calls to mind the 50’s movie where the lady dies in a car accident and her scientist husband sticks her head in a glass container and plugs her in and she bitches at him for the rest of the movie, until the lab catches on fire or something and its sequel–“The Man With Two Brains”– the Steve Martin movie.
Ah yes, the Man with Two Brains was fun … but I didn’t see the original. I love the drunk test at the very end of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unseSFWjuqs
I’ll try to find it. Testing reality is an interesting thing to do from time to time, because you might catch yourself in a dream. Ever have lucid dreams, where you know you are dreaming while you are dreaming?
Lucid Dreams? Not to violate blog etiquette or be tacky, but you might want to check out my blog and scroll two thirds down (http://marjoriekayesbabylondreams.wordpress.com} to this post: Dreams Communication using the Internet
Thanks for the clip. i had forgotten how funny it is. I loved the last scene when Steve Martin explains to the whore how he was going to kill her and replace her brain and she chirps “I don’t mind.”
The movie you speak of ( I think 😉 was actually in the 60’s called “The Brain That Wouldn’t Die “(1962) http://www.hulu.com/watch/73925/the-brain-that-wouldnt-die
Oh baby–that’s the brain. Thanks.
Neat thanks. Have you had them? I haven’t in a long time, but had some amazing experiences when I was into it years ago. Consciously witnessed a dream start(!), and another time, woke up slowly and had two bodies at once superimposed, my real body plus my dream body in different orientations, one face up, and the other face down(!), etc.)
Your small avatar image looks a friend of mine (former bass player in my band) from Sacramento. Thought you were her for a minute.
No–though I’d like to. Daniel Oldis is a friend. If you check him out, you’ll see that he published the first scientific research on Lucid Dreams called “The Lucid Dream Manifesto.” He lent me a Zeo and alas I sleep like the dead, and when I dream it’s vivid but I can’t recall ever being aware of dreaming until I’m beginning to wake up. I’m a little nuts anyway so my reality is vivid enough without walking on any ceilings.
I’ll clue him into this site. He’s been a Lucid Dreamer for thirty years or more and I know he would find your content very interesting as do I. Maybe he has some suggestions–I don’t know. I think I’m pretty hopeless when it comes to Lucid Dreams and you seem to be a natural. There was a movie about Lucid Dreaming with Danny Devito I saw and it seemed Devito’s character spends most of his time Lucid Dreaming which he says he prefers to reality saying in his dreams he has made love to Cleopatra so why not favor dream reality over the waking existence.
I see in his Lucid Dream Manifesto that Daniel Oldis cites Stephen LaBerge as helping him out when he was an undergrad. Cool that they knew each other. Oldis also mentions Carlos Castaneda and professor Charlie Tart who taught the “Altered States of Consciousness” class that got me into this subject.
Lucid dreaming: Try it tonight. Motivation is a big part of being able to do it. Also keep a dream journal for a week and test if you are awake several times during the day. That worked for me. I think I used LaBerge’s MILD, but haven’t recalled my dreams for a long time because I don’t get enough sleep. Need that device… 🙂
Catch you later, and thanks again.
PS. I’ve never met a person who isn’t “a little nuts”, but I’ve met people who are not self aware enough to realize they are. Hehe.
Melatonin helps some lucid dream . But you should start with a miniscule amount . Just buy it over the counter and split the pills into little pieces . Most people start with way too high a dosage because the stores put it out that way . Some people need very tiny amounts otherwise it has the opposite effect ( keeps you awake ) or gives you such intense dreams they virtually become nightmares !
One thing I’ve noticed is if you are intent on having a lucid dream it is best to catch yourself off guard . If you try too hard the mind refuses . If you unexpededly one night say to yourself “I’m going to Lucid dream !” Just one quick thought can produce a lucid dream . No one method works with everyone . You just have to keep trying . Just don’t try too hard ! 😉
One method that actually does work for everyone is the isolation tank ! Get in one of those and you will hit the lucid dream state in a few minutes ! I hear it is a terrifying experience , at one early stage . Most get over that stage in a short time though . I have a pearltrees.com bookmark album on “scientifically induced out of body experience “. Also some Lucid dreaming links somewhere 😉 The “consciousness” section is the most popular section of links on pearltrees I think . Huge community devoted to mind research .I’ll be linking some of the information provided here into the pearltrees.com
Melatonin is a hormone and I recommend caution in taking it. I believe there is a risk of seizures, headaches and other problems, but look into it before starting. I didn’t use it to have lucid dreams. As I said, just use MILD. I don’t know anyone who has failed to have lucid dreams using the MILD technique.
Also sensory deprivation tanks are not scary, unless you regress to an ape like state, break into a zoo and kill and eat a goat. (See Altered States, the movie)
I had a lucid dream I purposely started by giving myself a suggestion before going to sleep . I told myself to pick something up in order to verify I was in control of the dream . I was walking around a apartment complex and saw a tree . I bent down to grab a root . I was amazed when the root felt like rubber ! really weird ! It was like holding a rubber snake ! I could actually feel it !
It’s been said that people who can reach full meditation can go into lucid dreaming in a short time . Daydreaming is a form of lucid dreaming , most people have that ability when they are younger . To go into a deep trance easily but not necessarily totally willfully .
Melatonin ? ;….A … What ? Are you talking about ! ? It’s a natural substance already in your body . As you get older it diminishes . I’m talking about minuscule doses , not high doses that would be stupid ! It is sold over the counter !It’s a hormone that’s about all you got right ! Do you really think I would prescribe a dangerous substance ! ? Here’s the safety report from the Mayo Clinic ! Millions of people take it as a supplement for sleep ! If your afraid to take melatonin I’d stay away from aspirin if I was you ! http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/melatonin/NS_patient-melatonin/DSECTION=safety It’s found in food for Gods sake ! Oats, Sweet Corn & Rice
1. Oats, sweet corn and rice are the best foods to eat for melatonin. These foods contain between 1,000 and 1,800 picograms (1,000,000 picograms = 1 milligram) of melatonin per gram.
In the oats family, eat oatmeal, cereals containing oats, nature bars, oatmeal cookies and oat bread. Sweet corn is available in can or frozen form or fresh from your local grocery store or farmer’s market. Rice, both white and brown, is available at local grocery store.
Ginger & Barley
2. Ginger and barley both have a small amount of the hormone present. Ginger has about 500 picograms per gram of melatonin, and barley has minute amounts.
Ginger root and ground ginger are found in most local grocery and health food stores. To find barley, visit your grocery store’s soup aisle or a local health food store.
Tomatoes, Bananas & Radishes
3. Tomatoes, bananas and Japanese radishes (the stem and leaves combined) also contain small amounts of melatonin. All three foods have around 500 picograms per gram of melatonin in each one. These foods also can be found at your local farmer’s market or grocery store. Try to buy fresh if you can.
Fruits & Vegetables
4. Several other fruits and vegetables also contain minute amounts melatonin, including pineapples, apples, oranges, strawberries, kiwifruits, peppers and spinach. Try to buy fresh fruits and vegetables. Also, try to consume the them within one week of purchase.
You can prepare melatonin-rich meals using several foods containing a small amount of melatonin.
Almonds & Seeds
5. Other foods that contain melatonin include almonds, pimpinella peregrina (the dried root), sunflower seeds, fennel seeds, lemon verbena (the young plant), balm mint (the young plant) and green cardamom seeds. Most seeds can be found at your local health food store and some farmer’s markets.
Read more: Food Containing Melatonin | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5491365_food-containing-melatonin.html#ixzz1FKVM9atF
I like the nutritional approach, eat the foods, but don’t take hormones, if that works. If you take it, won’t your body will stop producing it naturally? Well, the body does stop producing it naturally as we age I believe. If you don’t eat well, you may be deficient and in that case taking some might help you(?) Do not do it blind. In other words, get tested. If your levels are low, then it makes sense to me to try it, but I’d still change my diet and other habits before taking hormone supplements. The risk of eventual death is 100% after taking melatonin. (Same as the risk for not taking it, which is the point of considering having a mind child.)
You have no idea what you are talking about ” guaranteed death ! ” are you nuts ! It’s in nuts ! There is no difference between melatonin in food or refined over the counter . Die ? I’ve taken it for months at a time . Then quite then went back on it , off and on . Like I said millions of people do all the time ! Did you even read what I sent ? Where are you getting this stuff ! Just making up as you go along ?
You have no idea what you are talking about ” guaranteed death ! ” are you nuts ! It’s in nuts ! There is no difference between melatonin in food or refined over the counter . Die ? I’ve taken it for months at a time . Then quite then went back on it , off and on . Like I said millions of people do all the time ! Did you even read what I sent ?
Where are you getting this stuff ! Just making things up as you go along ?
Wheres your data ? Proof ? You have nothing ! If you were right people would be dropping like flies ! Melatonin is one of the highest selling sleep aids ! Where’s all these dead people you speak of ? Wake up your dreaming ! Diphenhydramine (found in brand names like Nytol, Sominex, Sleepinal, Compoz) is much more dangerous then Melatonin ! You credibility has just taken a nose dive !
Wot? No smileys. 🙂
Nuts? Oh yes, I’m certain of it. Death is guaranteed. I can prove it. Nuts?! No one has ever survived past a certain age after taking Melatonin. People *are* dropping like flies. In case you haven’t noticed, around 150,000 people die each day across the globe. I can also guarantee that these same 150,000 people consumed dihydrogen monoxide before they died. (http://www.dhmo.org/) Unheed me at your own peril, mortals.
@ Cheng Ya I don’t know whats with all those smiley’s they seem to just appear at random ! 😉 See ! < There they go again !
@Xeno not if you have a mind Child ! 😉
( warning ! May contain nuts ! 😉
Also “The Good Night (2007)” Danny DeVito > Lucid Dreaming
If I had a mind child I would quickly disown it so I wouldn’t be associated and held responsible for its actions ! 😉 I have enough problems corralling my own mind ! 😉 No telling what my second mind would be up to ! ;-O But if my mind got out of hand and ruined my reputation then I should be able to pull the plug ! A kill switch if you will 😉 Because knowing my mind he would be up to no good ! Getting in all sorts of nasty situations ! The little bugger ! I hate him already ! ;-/
PS Knowing my mind he would make a copy . And that copy would make another copy and so on . Pretty soon my mind would be everywhere ! ;-O I know scary ! I would be like corralling a herd of cats ! ;-O
Along these lines . I remember a low budget movie years before “The Matrix ” that had virtually the same plot ! They must have paid someone to use the plot , story line. It was that close ! I thought it was very interesting . Wish I knew it’s name ! ;-/ It didn’t have any big actors in it .Funny how people forget the original 😉
That brings something up ! What if my copy becomes more popular than I am ;-O Maybe I’ll be the one to get erased ! ;-O